On 9 April 2025, the Minister of National Defence Nikos Dendias went to Bruges, Belgium, where he participated in a public discussion at the College of Europe, on the topic “Greece’s Role in the EU External Southeastern Periphery and its Contribution in the Development of a European Defence Arm”, which was held there.
Prior to the public discussion, the Minister of National Defence had a meeting with the Curator and former High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Federica Mogherini, and the professor of International Relations and Director of the Institute of Global Affairs Constantinos Filis.
In his address, and answering participants’ questions, Mr. Dendias stated, among others:
– Dear Rector, it is an honour and a privilege to be sitting next to you. I can remember the first time I saw you very vividly. I was a fresh Minister of Foreign Affairs, with no experience; not young in age, but as a Minister. So, I was attending carefully to what you were saying, bearing in mind that I could not say something that would compromise my country, since, at the time, in 2019, we were a new government, after the great crisis in Greece. We were trying to outwardly project a very positive image of ourselves, so we were extremely anxious to do it, and it is wonderful to meet you again in your present capacity. Thank you for hosting us. Also, it is a great opportunity for me to talk to students. When you talk to students, you feel young again and remember your own student years, and students have their own fresh way of approaching reality as well.
-I would like to say, that, first of all, in my opinion, European autonomy does not mean it is not complementary to NATO. I think that these two things can coexist. Let me be frank with all of you, so that at least we know where we stand. Europe has lived in a manner which has allowed Defence to take the back seat for years. So, if we think we can create something similar to what the word “defence autonomy” indicates, I would estimate that we are ten years away. Allow me to give you a simple example. Let us assume we need a European fleet. If we start ordering ships tomorrow, they will not be delivered earlier than seven or eight years from now. If we order one submarine tomorrow, we will not have it earlier than in 12 years from this day. So, creating European autonomy will be a long process, not something we can achieve tomorrow.
-We hear high numbers coming out of Brussels. 150 billion Euros etc. Even if we had the money we need, which, allow me to say, is much more than 150 billion, we don’t have the necessary infrastructure to produce what we need in time. So, we need to work more efficiently, in order to create this autonomy in ten years or so. Having said this, this autonomy does not mean that it should not be complementary to NATO and the United States. The choices of the current administration of the USA notwithstanding, the USA are a functioning democracy, a country which has saved Europe twice, in World War I and World War II, and I am not willing to write them off as a global factor for peace, stability, and democracy. Of course, I totally respect the government the people of the United States have chosen, yet once more, I would not exclude the United States from the future global security system. In the meanwhile, however, we must remain secure.
– I do not think that the European Union bar NATO has the capabilities to deploy in Ukraine. I clearly have the figures in mind concerning our capabilities in Ukraine. Let me give you a simple example concerning Greece. Greece is a medium – small sized economy, even in the EU framework. We are an economy of 240 billion. We have relatively large armed forces, since we are facing a threat from the east. Did you know that Greece has more heavy tanks than the United Kingdom, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, and Luxembourg combined? So, speaking about a military deployment to Ukraine, I think that for the European Union’s current forces it will be a very hard task. A very hard task. Now, if peace is achieved in Ukraine, and we deployed a peace keeping force, this is a completely different story. Greece is very good at mine hunting, so we could contribute to this, and see what we can do, but this is a different affair from deploying troops in Ukraine under present conditions. Again, I am not speaking exclusively of Ukraine, and not answering exclusively for Greece. I am clearly stating that Europe does not have the capability of doing that.
– For Greece, first of all, and I think for Europe as well, what has happened in Ukraine is completely unacceptable. It is something completely contrary to the United Nations Charter, totally, absolutely contrary to our norms of right and wrong. I mean, a full force invasion of a country in the 21st century? Who could have thought something like that possible? Could I share my personal experience thereof? I was the last Minister of Foreign Affairs who left Moscow prior to the invasion. I was in Moscow 48 hours prior to the invasion. Why was I there? I went to see Minister Lavrov, with one item on my agenda. The protection of the Greek community of Mariupol. Since, according to our analysis, this was the worst-case scenario at the time – though I have to say that the Americans warned us and showed us photographs – yet neither we nor the Ukrainians believed these photographs, since we could not possibly contemplate that Russia would invade full-scale. What we conceived of as the worst-case scenario was that Moscow would organise a limited scale operation, and we thought the Azov Sea was a possible objective of this operation. So, I went to intercede for the protection of the rights of the Greek community of Mariupol, since in 2014, in the previous Russian operation, Russia killed 14 Greeks by mistake, because they mistook a funeral for a military unit, and struck a cemetery with a missile. This was my own worst-case scenario.
– For Greece, and I think for Europe, it is an obvious choice. We cannot accept invasions as a legitimate means of resolving inter-state differences, regardless of the reasons. Since, if we make the leap, and for whatever reason accept it, then humanity’s reality will revert to the Middle Ages. Thus, we had to side with Ukraine, due to values. We had no other choice. There was no choice for Europe, no other choice for Greece. I am saying this to underline that we cannot accept border changes which came about by invasion, as legitimate. We cannot do this. Of course, we cannot put pressure on the Ukrainians. They are fighting. They are spilling their blood for their country. So, putting pressure on Ukraine to accept a border change by force, is something we cannot do. Allow me to step into my Greek shoes now. Would that be a clever thing to do? For Greece to accept or condone a border change achieved by force? Since, in our country, there are forces who pretend to be ultranationalists, who, hiding what they say, tend to support the Russian Invasion of Ukraine. I would ask them: “Do you clearly understand what you are supporting? Which paradigm you consider acceptable”? So, professor Filis, I refuse to compromise in any way on questions of value. For us, Greece, the United Nations Charter is something all nations should abide by.
– Whatever measures the European Union takes in this direction are correct. But, as I stated previously, it takes time. Also, there are many technical matters. Since Ukraine has totally transformed modern warfare. That is, when we are talking of reform, we are talking of a total reform. Everything has changed. The manner of conducing war, the necessary equipment. Take tanks for example. Tanks, which were the main component of Blitzkrieg in World War II, are obsolete for the most part. They are targets. We must operate in a totally different manner. Consequently, yes, what the European Union claims is in the right direction. As I stated previously, it will take time, and we must understand that everything must change. Having said that, there is a particularly important element for us Greeks. Which is, who serves in the armed forces. I know this is perhaps not popular among young people, yet the answer in Greece is very simple: A citizen serves in a Democracy’s army. A citizen. Not a professional. The professional backbone is necessary of course. That is for sure. Yet the citizens must and ought to serve. Citizens must protect their countries, and their countries’ and EU values. I repeat, this will not gain me much popularity.
– The European Union is conducting two naval operations at the moment, both of which have a Greek name. One is named IRINI, and is conducted north of Libya, and the other is named ASPIDES, and is conducted in the Red Sea. One, IRINI, has three permanent vessels, and the other, ASPIDES, has four permanent vessels. Well, they have a Greek name, not due to European civilisation, which can be traced back to the ancient Greeks, but because Greece has greatly supported both and committed resources to both. Yet, allow me to tell you that it is funny for the European Union of 450 million people to put a mere seven ships to sea each time, following elaborate efforts from the High Commissioner no less. Because we, the European Union, totally lack the culture of protecting our routes of communication. To state the obvious, the Red Sea is of strategic importance to the European Union. You can just glance at the map. Yet, only three countries apart from Greece have committed a vessel. I literally mean one vessel. We are speaking of the defence autonomy of the European Union! I mentioned ten years, yet even that may be too soon.
– You are asking for my assessment concerning the security situation, if Russia attempts to invade other countries apart from Ukraine. Well, having evaluated the Russian Army during the current operations in Ukraine, I say that they are unable to do it. Even at the current level of forces of European Union countries, it would be extremely difficult for the Russian Army to achieve its goal, even if it so wished. For, deploying troops abroad is different from defending.
What is currently being discussed in Europe is the transfer of unused funds, something which makes sense. What I mean is, imagine we are a family, and you transfer funds from one need towards another, which is more pressing. In my opinion this makes perfect sense. Once more, allow me to underline what is most important. It is not only funding. It is building capabilities. In a way, creating a defence base anew, and also transitioning to new sectors where we are not as good. Allow me to give you a simple example. Unmanned aerial vehicles. Russia produces thousands of UAVs daily. Iran produces thousands of UAVs daily. Turkey has the capability of producing thousands of UAVs daily. Europe has the knowledge, but not the capability. Also, as far as innovation is concerned, we need to create a unified European defence ecosystem, which could find innovative solutions for the problems the European Army is facing and will be facing. We will not simply reproduce what happened in the past, with big ships, big tanks, and airplanes. Airplanes, for example. Europe does not produce Stealth airplanes. The only one available in the market at the moment is the American F-35. Therefore, purchasing the F-35 is the only solution for Greece. There exist perfectly good European planes, such as the Rafale, the Tycoon, and the Eurofighter, yet none of them is a Stealth aircraft. In the future, allow me to give you a picture of the future; in the future we will not be discussing fighter aircraft. We will be discussing a fighter aircraft, a platform such as the F-35, and a swarm of UAVs around it, which will be fighting. The pilot will be the one driving, but not the one fighting with his aircraft – the fighting will be done by the UAVs he will be using. Thus, Europe has to make a leap forward, and for this something more than money is needed. It is also a matter of culture. A final comment, which, since I am talking to the youth, I must make. You cannot survive, if others are fighting in your stead. This is a lesson from History.
– My answer, unfortunately is clear (as to whether Europe can face the increasing cyber threats): No. We are not ready. Having lost the United Kingdom after Brexit, another inconceivable scenario I had not anticipated in my lifetime, we are totally unprepared. However, that does not mean we should not continue trying and preparing ourselves. I repeat, it will take a few years. Even during the Ukrainian War, I have to say that much progress has been made in this sector, since you must treat it as another theatre of war. We have land, sea, air, and now, somewhere in between is hybrid warfare. Therefore, we must prepare our forces for this theatre of war as well. Much progress has been made in the past two years, after the invasion of Ukraine. But much more yet remains in order to address the existing challenges.